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Could there be a reversed multiple crown watermark ???

Discovery of reversed ribbing

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Carmen26/06/2019 13:15:07
650 forum posts
61 photos

And that of course, is another thing about stamp collecting - what one person considers of philatelic significance, may not be significant to another. Still, *I* think you have an item of interest there, Fred. laugh

Edited By Carmen on 26/06/2019 13:15:26

Fred Sellars29/06/2019 13:48:33
205 forum posts
67 photos

Maybe you would like to know more about how a watermark is created during the production of the laid paper,if so I suggest that you go to :-. and once there search for watermarks in laid paper.

It's just a general overview but at least it will give you some information on the subject.

Have a nice day, Fred.

Fred Sellars30/06/2019 08:27:30
205 forum posts
67 photos

To get to the root of the matter one must first look at the type of paper that these particular stamps were printed on and my own conclusion is that they were printed on a "laid paper". This definition can be found on several websites, one that springs to mind is

The ribbing or mesh is actually a watermark in its own right as it was created by the same method IE. The same principle as the crowns design within it, therefore you need to combine the two to get an overall diagnosis.

In the past 2 years I have examined many thousands of these stamps and have found that the majority of them fall into two major categories, one being a mesh design of vertical/horizontal construction, the other being a criss-cross design comprising of diagonal lines, and consequently give no indication as to any reversal to be identified overall.

It was purely by accident that I came across these single ribbed type stamps, but what surprised me even more was that some of them were in the opposite direction i.e. reversed, could it be that the watermark was likewise in relation to the difference found ?


Fred Sellars04/07/2019 10:05:03
205 forum posts
67 photos

Whenever displaying an object it is always best to consider alternative methods for the subject in question in which to highlight its features.

this can be noticed more so when comparing things that are difficult to portray under normal circumstances, as the picture below is an example of such a highlighting procedure, as this was the original scan taken of the 1/6d values.

It does make a difference !

TO BE CONTINUED >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>



Edited By Fred Sellars on 04/07/2019 10:13:57

Fred Sellars04/07/2019 10:39:17
205 forum posts
67 photos

For ease of viewing the difference,the impact mode picture has been placed below .

Thank you.

TO BE CONTINUED >>>>>>>>>>>>>>


Edited By Fred Sellars on 04/07/2019 10:42:17

Ian Gibbons 108/07/2019 12:32:55
12 forum posts
2 photos

I think your confusing old line engraved paper production and watermark production and the more modern way that was used. When first done i.e. line engraved period the paper sheets were indeed made by hand at the mills and floated onto a tray with the dandy wires below, so resting on them creating the watermark. However the paper milling techniques of the 1950's was that the paper was being machine milled onto a roller (this is were the ribbing was effected) The paper roll is then pulled off whilst still wet and runs though a dandy roller creating the multiple crown watermark. The roll with ribbing could therefore be fed top first or bottom first (like a toilet roll on a holder - users preference) and then the ribbing could be either way L-R or R-L but you do not get the dandy roller in a different position its always the same. The only time you get an inverted wmk is in the booklets.

Fred Sellars08/07/2019 16:09:59
205 forum posts
67 photos

My findings so far are not related to an inverted watermark and ribbing in the laid paper., But a possibility of it being reversed, and only a few values have been found showing this anomaly compared to the normal mesh ones found, these single ribbed 45° stamps are only a small percentage in relation to the other types discovered.

That's all I have to say at this moment in time, except for the fact that the ribbing and watermark was produced when the paper was just pulp.

Ian Gibbons 108/07/2019 17:29:05
12 forum posts
2 photos

But that is wrong, the paper was made first, then the watermark was created whilst the paper was damp. What your suggesting is nonsense not factual. It just doesn't agree with the method of production so cannot be. Laying of a paper had nothing to do with the next part of the process. How the paper was used can only be causing a reversal of the laying. It cannot reverse a fixed dandy roller.

Ian Gibbons 108/07/2019 17:57:17
12 forum posts
2 photos

ok maybe pictures are easier for you to understand Fred. The dandy roll is fixed otherwise you would get inverted which you dont unless it was used during the booklet process and then the paper was just used differently. I've added some 'laying' for you too. So now explain how you think the dandy roll process could have created a reversed image.picture2.jpg

Edited By Ian Gibbons 1 on 08/07/2019 17:57:42

Fred Sellars08/07/2019 18:46:25
205 forum posts
67 photos

Give it a rest for today Ian you're obsessed, you've been at me all day with regards to listing of short perfs,I don't know who you represent as so far you have been elusive giving any answer.

But before that I suggest you look at " production of watermarked laid paper", which appears to conflict with some of the things that you have stated , Wikipedia is an area that I have got some of my information from.

Thank you.

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